Wikipedia:コメント依頼/MtBell
利用者:MtBell（会話 / 投稿記録 / 記録 / CA / guc）氏の編集行為に対して、広く意見を求めます。--hyolee2/H.L.LEE 2010年8月19日 (木) 00:18 (UTC)
経緯[編集]
MtBell氏は南京事件 (1937年)（ノート / 履歴 / ログ / リンク元）、ノート:南京事件 (1937年) （ノート / 履歴 / ログ / リンク元）で何らかの意図を持ってプロパガンダ目的の編集を繰り返しており、ほかの利用者が注意をしても、罵詈雑言をくりかえして編集を継続しております。そのために本体は保護される状態になっております。ノートページでは詭弁を垂れ流してめちゃくちゃな状態になっております。本人の利用者‐会話:MtBell（ノート / 履歴 / ログ / リンク元）でも罵詈雑言を繰り返しています。--hyolee2/H.L.LEE 2010年8月19日 (木) 00:18 (UTC)
被依頼者コメント[編集]
I'm sorry I do not speak Japanese. But fortunately Wikipedia policies do not prohibit English in discussions, and I believe it should not be a problem to understand English for most jawp users.
Concerning the edit war on the article Nanking Massacre, it began when I added some well-sourced photos in the article while user Nakata88 removed it without giving any sources to back his assertion that these photos are unrelated to the topic or just fake. This happened again and again. The photos and their sources are illustrate on the right side for your judgement and conveniences.
It is well known that in Wikipedia we have 3 core policies: WP:NPOV, WP:VERIFY and WP:NOR.
- WP:NPOV suggests that viewpoints, which are well-sourced and therefore verifiable, must be balanced. I will talk about balancing later and let's focus on the verfiability first.
- Nakata88 removed these photos again and again, because he said some denialists believe these photos are all problematic. But where is the source which backs this assertion? I have given enough sources to show the photos are on the topic, but on the contrary, Mr. Nakata88 failed to present any source with verifiable information (the title, author and publisher from published literatures) as a proof of his judgment. Therefore his assertion is very likely his personal original research and his reverts violated WP:VERIFY as well as WP:NOR.
- NPOV is the cornerstone of WP policies. It suggests verifiable viewpoints being balanced. Even if Mr. Nakata88 had shown his assertion were verifiable (but he didn't), removing the photos still violates the NPOV policy because deleting these works reflects the viewpoints of the denialist only, and viewpoints from the other side is totally neglected.
Above is all my comments on this matter. Hope the ja-wp community will make a just decision on this controversial topic. Thank you. --MtBell 2010年8月19日 (木) 15:10 (UTC)
- Ref
- ^ 2008年9月14日朝日新闻
- ^ “南京寇軍活埋我同胞之慘狀”，日寇暴行實錄. 漢口: 1938年7月
- ^ “December 16th, 1937. Chinese women on Shanghai Road, Nanking, kneeling and begging Japanese soldiers for the lives of their sons and husbands when these were being collected at random on the suspicion of of being ex-soldiers. Thousands of civilians were taken in this way, bound with ropes, carried to the river bank in Hsiakwan, to the edges of ponds, and to vacant spaces where they were done to death by machine-guns, bayonets, rifles, and even hand grenades..”(quoted in John Rabe, Erwin Wickert. The good man of Nanking: The diaries of John Rabe. A.A. Knopf, 1998. page 279)
- ^ 洞富雄. 南京大虐殺
- ^ "A child also was deliberately shot by Japanese, its mother was wounded. Taken by John Magee, published in The Diaries of John Rabe
- ^ “南京三歲兒童被日軍槍殺”, 日寇暴行實錄. 漢口: 1938年7月
依頼者と第三者コメント[編集]
- （コメント）何らかの意図を持って編集をしているのは明白（目的外利用）ですので、WP日本語版はもちろんすべてのウィキプロジェクトでの編集を禁止すべきではないかと思います。--hyolee2/H.L.LEE 2010年8月19日 (木) 00:18 (UTC)
- （コメント）MtBell氏に中国共産党などの背景とそれに基づく意図があるかどうか今のところ判断を差し控えますが、彼には、ずいぶん前から、彼の理解できる言語で、日本語での討論を求めるコメントが複数回伝えているにもかかわらず、どうしても応じてもらえません。（もしかすると彼に対するその言語による監視者がいるのかも知れないともおもいます。）よって、少なくとも、編集理由を日本語で説明することが必要な日本語のウィキペディアコミュニティとしては、彼による編集やリバートの独善的な繰り返しはもはや、許容できないと考えます。したがって、このままならMtBell氏のBanもやむを得ないと思います。Nakata88 2010年8月19日 (木) 08:57 (UTC)
コメント 日本語が理解できないのに、あえて日本語版の記事に投稿する、というのは動機が想像できません。おそらく何らかの意図、が背景にあるのではないでしょうか。ご自分の貢献できる言語版のプロジェクトで投稿してください。今後も同様の行為が続くならbanせざるを得ないでしょう。 Firstly, if you want to edit articles content or text , you should know its project's language, however it is very basic. Secondly you seem to edit articles based on not Wikipedia goals but a political intention. Wikipedia is not your propaganda space, is not a battle field.--Was a bee 2010年8月19日 (木) 23:39 (UTC) - english fix --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 00:03 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your kind translation. But may I ask if there is a policy that non-Japanese users are prohibited from editing articles in Japanese Wikipedia? If there is one, you will be most appreciated if you can give me the link.
- I am not interested in edting the text but just adding a few photos. And I cannot agree with your accuse that these photos are for political propaganda. It sounds like an attack on me, which is not acceptable. Why, one may ask, are such photos illustrated without any question in articles of Nanjing Massacre in all major Wikipedia projects but Japanese WP? Based on this fact, is it a bit too hasty to conclude without evidences that including such well-sourced photos are for propaganda purpose? Were I you, I would focus on WP policies but not attacking me on my purpose, because it does not make sense. --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 01:14 (UTC)
- If you add simply interwiki link or commonscat and so on, it would be possible if you can not read the language. But if you edit content, how do you get the information about article...? Where you should add images, and what type of images should be added. And especially when your addition is thought to be inappropriate by other editors, yes this case, how do you discuss about that editing? --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 01:40 (UTC)
- So you mean there is a policy that prohibits non-Japanese users from editing articles, or, specifically, adding photos? --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 02:11 (UTC)
- You are not prohibited using english, and editing. Although almost Japanese wikipedian can not understand what you write (this is simple fact...). This is first thing. And second thing. When controversy has arose, problems should be solved through discussion in talk page. You know well it:> But you can not understand what other editors said, and at the same time you do not stop editing. This type of conduct, sometimes called as 対話不能 "impossible to communicate" in Japanese wikipedia, can be sufficient reason of blocking (this term is used mainly for Japanese wikipedians who fully ignore messages or notices or complaints from other editors, and do not stop editing). --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 02:21 (UTC)
- If you have read the talk page, you must have found that Nakata88 and I have made a long discussion in English. I have explained the sources and captions of the photos in the talk page [1]. And you can also find that Nakata88 never made any direct response and stopped posting in English but simply attacked me in Japanese that I added these photos by commands from 中国共產党. I'm really quite disappointing that all my efforts of making the photos verifiable and reliable are ignored by Nakata88. Well, let's focus on the policies. I have provided enough sources for the photos as you can see. Per WP:V, the photos are well-sourced and there should be no problem adding them in the article. If Nakata88 insists not including them, he should provide reliable sources to make his arguements reasonable; otherwise he was violating WP:V. I thought Nakata understood the importance of proposing reliable sources to back his assertion, but it turned out that he does not. I guess such misunderstanding between editors is also a kind of the so called 対話不能. --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:01 (UTC)
- I see your talk. You did not respond Nakata88's questions about sources. --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:16 (UTC)
- The sources are given in the captions as you can find in the discussion page (Life magazine, Magee's film, Rabe's diaries, etc.). Actually I got angry because even if the sources are well given in quite details, Nakata88 was still asking for it. I don't know if I misunderstood the definition of 'sources' here? --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:33 (UTC)
- Umm...You do not understand what Nakata88 asked. It looks perfectly difficult for you to treat this topic in language you can not read. Sorry, but I feel really so. --Was a bee
- Could you tell me what he asked for when he mentioned 'sources'? --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:58 (UTC)
- I don't do more. I'm not interested in this political topic. I tranlated his final one. "Where your Japanese captions come from. It is differ from original." I do not commit discussion about content more. Thanks.--Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 04:09 (UTC)
- Thank you so much. --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 04:11 (UTC)
- Could you tell me what he asked for when he mentioned 'sources'? --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:58 (UTC)
- Umm...You do not understand what Nakata88 asked. It looks perfectly difficult for you to treat this topic in language you can not read. Sorry, but I feel really so. --Was a bee
- The sources are given in the captions as you can find in the discussion page (Life magazine, Magee's film, Rabe's diaries, etc.). Actually I got angry because even if the sources are well given in quite details, Nakata88 was still asking for it. I don't know if I misunderstood the definition of 'sources' here? --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:33 (UTC)
- I see your talk. You did not respond Nakata88's questions about sources. --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:16 (UTC)
- If you have read the talk page, you must have found that Nakata88 and I have made a long discussion in English. I have explained the sources and captions of the photos in the talk page [1]. And you can also find that Nakata88 never made any direct response and stopped posting in English but simply attacked me in Japanese that I added these photos by commands from 中国共產党. I'm really quite disappointing that all my efforts of making the photos verifiable and reliable are ignored by Nakata88. Well, let's focus on the policies. I have provided enough sources for the photos as you can see. Per WP:V, the photos are well-sourced and there should be no problem adding them in the article. If Nakata88 insists not including them, he should provide reliable sources to make his arguements reasonable; otherwise he was violating WP:V. I thought Nakata understood the importance of proposing reliable sources to back his assertion, but it turned out that he does not. I guess such misunderstanding between editors is also a kind of the so called 対話不能. --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:01 (UTC)
- Wait a minute.... Additionally, I don't know well about history or politics. But I know this theme is very controversial topic in Japan. And I know that many many researches, books, movies and also comics are published about this topic in Japanese language. And I know many criticisms to each materials is also published. I don't know what is appropriate and valid. I can imagine that editing this topic needs very intensive pre-research and continuous discussion. --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:08 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. What you said makes a lot of sense, and it is just the reason that why I quoted the policy WP:V. Per WP:WP, editors should not judge if something is true or false (possibly it is because that they do not have such ability as well as public credibility). Editors should just quote what the references say and balance the weight by their importance. For these photos, they are cited in many publications all around the world as illustrations of the incident. And I also have read some books written by 东中野修道 who denies some of these photos. It is fair and neutral to add viewpoints of both sides in the caption, but deleting or refusing these images is in fact to yield to the denialists and therefore violates WP:NPOV. --MtBell
- I said above, you should firstly respond questions you get. You are not prohibited speak in English here, but nobody here has duty to communicate in English (that is hard work for many of us, including me). Thanks.--Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 03:45 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. What you said makes a lot of sense, and it is just the reason that why I quoted the policy WP:V. Per WP:WP, editors should not judge if something is true or false (possibly it is because that they do not have such ability as well as public credibility). Editors should just quote what the references say and balance the weight by their importance. For these photos, they are cited in many publications all around the world as illustrations of the incident. And I also have read some books written by 东中野修道 who denies some of these photos. It is fair and neutral to add viewpoints of both sides in the caption, but deleting or refusing these images is in fact to yield to the denialists and therefore violates WP:NPOV. --MtBell
- You are not prohibited using english, and editing. Although almost Japanese wikipedian can not understand what you write (this is simple fact...). This is first thing. And second thing. When controversy has arose, problems should be solved through discussion in talk page. You know well it:> But you can not understand what other editors said, and at the same time you do not stop editing. This type of conduct, sometimes called as 対話不能 "impossible to communicate" in Japanese wikipedia, can be sufficient reason of blocking (this term is used mainly for Japanese wikipedians who fully ignore messages or notices or complaints from other editors, and do not stop editing). --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 02:21 (UTC)
- So you mean there is a policy that prohibits non-Japanese users from editing articles, or, specifically, adding photos? --MtBell 2010年8月20日 (金) 02:11 (UTC)
- If you add simply interwiki link or commonscat and so on, it would be possible if you can not read the language. But if you edit content, how do you get the information about article...? Where you should add images, and what type of images should be added. And especially when your addition is thought to be inappropriate by other editors, yes this case, how do you discuss about that editing? --Was a bee 2010年8月20日 (金) 01:40 (UTC)
- コメント 合意がなければ記載不可のローカルルールのある記事においての強引な編集、および上記のように日本語版にて合意が難しい語学力から議論が不可能な方であり、議論ができず強引な手法を取る方ということで今後のことを考え、何らかの対処を求めたいところです。--PSIA 2010年8月24日 (火) 08:12 (UTC)
