Wikipedia:井戸端/subj/GACKT - new revision

井戸端のタグ：人物記事 | 個別記事内容 [編集]

GACKT - new revision

I am an editor from English Wikipedia and have more than 10 years of experience of editing Wikipedia among others. I re-wrote the article of Japanese artist GACKT, as explained at [[ノート:GACKT#Rewriting (12.2023)]], because it has many editing policy problems for many years and the artist due to his notability deserves a well written article in an encyclopedic way of writing. The article was mostly translated from the current revision at English Wikipedia. After rewriting it (new revision [https://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GACKT&diff=98472958&oldid=98320314 15.12.2023.]), I wrote what must be done and what should NOT be done. The article now only needs grammar checking and fixing. However, two new editors without enough experience and understanding of Wikipedia's editing policy made disruptive & vandalic reverts to the very bad old revision with many problems. Their excuses for the revert are completely illogical and unheard off in English Wikipedia or Wikipedia in general. Please stop their disruptive behavior, revert to the new revision and help with fixing the grammar. Thank you.--Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 08:00 (UTC)

Please, can somebody stop these unreasonable and unexperienced editors from vandalizing the new revision?! They do NOT understand that increase in size is NEVER reason for a revert. They do NOT understand English language. Please somebody help, NEW REVISION needs only FIXING GRAMMAR. --Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 08:20 (UTC)

The article you posted clearly appears to be the output of a machine translation without any correction. JAWP expressly prohibits this type of behavior. See WP:MACHINE.--Nux-vomica 1007（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 08:33 (UTC)

Then please just correct the grammar. It is not a lot of text. It is a job which can be done in less than 5 hours. Please, somebody help fixing the grammar.--Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 09:19 (UTC)

Frankly, I cannot accept your revision as Japanese. The grammar is a mess and extremely difficult to correct. What you are saying is like taking me a completely wrecked car and asking me to fix it as a new one. (why did you think it could be done in less than 5 hours?) Since you acquire several languages, you should be able to understand that translation is a daunting task. Do NOT try to force someone else to do what you can't.--Nux-vomica 1007（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 09:42 (UTC) 修正 --Nux-vomica 1007（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 10:50 (UTC)

That's not how we work on English Wikipedia. This is very unproductive and unfriendly behavior when someone asks for help. Nobody would accept poor and badly written old revision with huge amount of problems instead of re-editing a much better new revision. No wonder so many articles on Japanese Wikipedia are of such poor quality. --Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 14:27 (UTC)

Basically, what you're doing is VANDALISM. Have you seen the news about the destruction of the Scots Wikipedia?[1] What you are doing is generally like this. As I said before, the Japanese Wikipedia does not allow simple machine translation. It is purely because the act degrades the quality of an article. See WP:MACHINE. You've said that the old revision of the article is "poor and badly written", but your revision is WORSE. Wikipedia is of course a place for collaborative writing, but that does not mean that one editor can overburden other editors. you might not realize it but your revision is worse than you think. It's just a word salad and you're just a vandal. (You're giving me a headache...)--Nux-vomica 1007（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 15:25 (UTC)

I am an experienced editor. I have done everything in my power and skill, from article to talk page to inform everyone to help with the editing & grammar. What I have done is NOT vandalism. You don't know what vandalism even is. Your claims are accusations not in good faith. New revision is by nothing except grammar worse than old revision. This proves you do NOT know what a high quality article looks like. The old revision is a great example what a Wikipedia article must NOT look like. It is horrible beyond every imaginable measure, with false information, no or bad sourcing, bunch of worthless and trivial information. It is violating every possible editing policy. The old revision and its defense is a headache. You all gave ME such a headache after spending days on making a major edit. Bye.--Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 18:10 (UTC)

Yes, you did everything in your power and skill... and just clicked on Google Translate. (What an experienced editor you are!) If you sincerely believe that this is an act of good faith, then it shows a hopeless lack of understanding and disregard for the language you do not know and difficulty of the postedit. With a few energetic people like you, all wikis would be completely dysfunctional. What in the world will happen if I import the 2018 GA articles from JAWP (7 of which I wrote, by the way.) into ENWP with Google Translate?

Anyway, NEVER try to revise an article written in language you have no knowledge boldly. This is all too, too obvious. I am really concerned that you will follow Manifest Destiny and do the same with articles in languages other than Japanese, such as Malay or Korean.--Nux-vomica 1007（会話） 2023年12月16日 (土) 05:55 (UTC)

Nevermind, am sorry for my comments. Forgive me.--Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 15:22 (UTC)

返信 (@Miki Filigranskiさん宛) - 日本語で失礼します。申し訳ありませんが、日本語版ウィキペディアのコミュニティがあなたの改稿に同意する可能性は低いです。確かにあなたが新たに加えた内容は検証可能性の観点からすれば品質は高いように見えます。しかし、あなたが書いた日本語の文章の文法は滅茶苦茶であり、ネイティブの日本語話者はスムーズに読むことは難しいように私は感じます。あなたの書いた文章の文法を改善するのに他の利用者が費やす労力や、不完全な日本語が現在の版として記事に表示され続ける影響は、あなたが考えているよりも大きいです。

私はあなたが「GACKT」の記事の改善に誠意をもって取り組んで下さっていることに理解・感謝を申し上げますが、英語版ウィキペディアの方針や慣習が、必ずしも日本語版のような他の言語版ウィキペディアに適用されるとは限らないことをご理解ください。また、あなたが日本語版ウィキペディアの他の利用者を「vandalism」呼ばわりするのは、完全な誤解に基づく行動です。--Yushukasai 2023年12月15日 (金) 08:37 (UTC) 修正。--Yushukasai 2023年12月15日 (金) 08:39 (UTC)　修正。--Yushukasai 2023年12月15日 (金) 08:49 (UTC)

著作権侵害はありませんし、削除依頼もありません。 この記事は英語版 Wikipedia から翻訳されたもので、文法を修正するだけで十分です。 どうしても信じられないんです。この議論や差し戻しに携わる 3 ～ 5 人の編集者が 24 時間以内に文法を修正できないという言い訳はできません。 適切な直訳を作成するために、チェックすべきすべてのソースと英語版の Wikipedia の改訂版が揃っています。もう一度お願いします。テキストはそれほど多くありません。文法を修正するのに必要なエディタは 1 つだけです。 1人でも5時間以内でできる作業です。 お願いします。--Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 09:18 (UTC)

 Reply - (switched to English) As far as I have checked the page history of en:Gackt, contributors other than you are also involved in editing the article, and when you translated it into JAWP, you did not write a link to the ENWP article in the edit summary. At least the rule for the JAWP is that if you do not, you will infringe on the copyright of the editors on ENWP other than yourself. --Yushukasai 2023年12月15日 (金) 10:19 (UTC)

WHAT?! Beforehand making any edit to the article on the Japanese Wikipedia I already wrote ([2]) on article's talk page that am going to use English Wikipedia, and when made the first edit mentioned in the edit summary English Wikipedia ([3]). Also, the editors do NOT own any copyright to anything on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a free content and only web pages outside Wikipedia should care about Wikipedia's copyrights. --Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 14:27 (UTC)

 Reply - If you really think that Wikipedia contents are free contents without any restrictions, you are seriously mistaken. en:Wikipedia:Copyrights (oldid=1180448057) says,

The text of Wikipedia is copyrighted (automatically, under the Berne Convention) by Wikipedia editors and contributors and is formally licensed to the public under one or several liberal licenses.

This is the same in JAWP. This also applies when copying within Wikipedia. See WP:CWW. When transcribing from another article to another article, a hyperlink to the original article or a hyperlink to the list of all authors is required in the page history (edit summary). If there is no hyperlink, it will be a license violation even if the article name is written. --Yushukasai 2023年12月15日 (金) 14:59 (UTC)

I know that, but that's not the point. The edit summary didn't have enough space for URL hence mention of English Wikipedia should be enough, it is literally a click away, easily accessed and understood by everyone where it was translated/inspired from. Anyway, sorry for my comments and mistake. I now decided to accept and agree with the consensus of editors here on Japanese Wikipedia hence started a translation request on English Wikipedia (en:Talk:Gackt#Translation of English Wikipedia to Japanese Wikipedia) so it would be done in proper way according to the editing policy and Japanese Wikipedia standard. Have a nice day and happy holidays.--Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月15日 (金) 15:22 (UTC)

 Stop No meaningless transactions anymore here. Miki Filigranski seems to have noticed what they should've done instead. And to peer editors, it is also very unfriendly to only point out issues without offering alternative solutions.

• It is incorrect, and even dangerous to claim that Wikipedia editors don't have copyrights on the articles they write. Editors do have copyrights on their articles. It's just that writing an article on Wikipedia is tantamount to saying that the editor agrees to put the article under a copyleft license, which grants certain freedoms over copies of copyrighted works on the condition that derivative works present attribution to the original source (i.e., the concept of copyleft builds up on the premise that the source is copyrighted). I in fact know of a legal case in which a city office used on its website an image on jawiki without attribution to the source, and the court ordered the office to compensate for the copyright infringement for the uploader.
• The new machine translation isn't something that can be "salvaged" by simple assistance because it's mostly incomprehensible as an article written in Japanese. Helpers would need to check the original text to figure out what the sentence means or to correct grammar errors, to "make the translation an article". This is no different from translating the English article into Japanese from scratch.
• The current version of GACKT does have issues as an article. It's more like just a list. Someone could've offered a link to Wikipedia:Request for translation or could've suggested posting a translation request on the talk page.

I also suggest that some people here refer to WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND. --Dragoniez (talk) 2023年12月16日 (土) 06:50 (UTC)

Since you are interested in law and politics, I will provide some explanations as an addendum.

Japan has a culture of codified law, and its sense of law and rules differs from that of the United Kingdom and the United States, which have a customary law culture. In addition, there is no fair use clause in Japanese copyright law.

• There has been much debate about attribution in the Japanese version of Wikipedia since its inception. At that time, the license was GFDL, which required "preservation of the history page. The solution in the Japanese version was to create a hyperlink in the summary field when copying and pasting between articles or when translating, and consider it as saving to the "history page".
• In the Japanese version, the absence of attribution in the summary field is subject to deletion. For example, this article[4] was made in translation from the first edition, but we consider that no attribution was made up to the version of 2022-09-08T02:28:43, so we consider it to be deleted. we consider that attribution for the version of 2022-09-08T02:28:43 is indicated in the time stamp area and in the summary for editions older than the version of 2022-09-08T02:28:43. Since the author of the English version is not indicated in these, Versions from the first one to 2022-09-08T02:28:43 are subject to deletion.

We believe this is a point where the operation of the Japanese version and the English version differ greatly. We hope this helps your understanding.--Ks aka 98（会話） 2023年12月17日 (日) 13:59 (UTC)

@Dragoniez and Ks aka 98: thank you very much for your comments, now I finally understand the whole context and your point of view on Japanese Wikipedia. I am very sorry for my misunderstanding which caused such a situation.--Miki Filigranski（会話） 2023年12月17日 (日) 21:21 (UTC)